Never Do Mistakes Of The Corporate World – By Seni Adetu

Let me quickly make a confession – it has always been my desire to interview Otunba Seni Adetu. But despite all my efforts, I wasn’t able to until recently and after both of us met in Dubai, UAE, during the 60th birthday of renowned herbal slimmer, Mrs Quincy Ayodele. Being a huge admirer, I had gone over to his table to exchange pleasantries with him and his effervescent wife, Janet.

Weeks after our return, my good friend, Mr Michael Effiong and I visited his Victoria Island, Lagos office to ask him to speak at Effiong’s installation ceremony as the 33rd president of Rotary Club of Ikeja South. We ignited our discussion from where we paused it in Dubai. Days later, I sent him a text asking for an interview appointment and pronto he replied.

A former MD/CEO of Guinness Nigeria Plc, Adetu, currently the Group Chief Executive Officer of First Primus, comprising Algorithm, Mindshare and Mediacom, has under his belt over 30 years of fast moving consumer goods (FMCG) experience in commercial management (sales and marketing), business strategy and general management across Africa.

Deservedly named the runner up, Forbes/CNBC Business Leader/CEO of the Year 2012, East Africa, the ‘corporate frontliner’ who traversed John Holt, Coca-cola and Guinness, prior to birthing First Primus, held back nothing in this encounter with YES INTERNATIONAL! Magazine Publisher/Editor-in-Chief, AZUH ARINZE.

The venue was his Victoria Island office and the date, Tuesday, February 4, 2020. Enjoy…

What makes a good businessman?

It depends on who you discuss with and what business you are into; their perspective of who a good businessman is could be different. But one thing I expect to be common, irrespective of who you speak to, is the fact that a good businessman is the one that knows how to manage resources effectively. And the reason I’m saying that is that as a businessman, you would have a lot of things at your disposal, and not necessarily financial. So, there are people, there’s a network, there are relationships, there’s whatever you say. So, what makes you a successful businessman or a potentially successful businessman is the ability to blend all these resources and be able to prioritize them in a way that constitutes…you know the concept of opportunity cost (yes). So, the one that you put in place A gives you a much better outcome than if that same resource had gone into B. So, it’s really about effective management of resources, it’s about optimizing whatever resources you have at your disposal to the best that you can. That’s a good businessman in my opinion.

What is the commonest mistake that most business people make?

I think it’s really about looking at business as a sprint instead of a marathon. I’ve seen people set out and get into a very complex race, and build business plans suggesting that they want to make money in the first one year or two years and I think it’s a recipe for failure. You can decide that you want to cheat your way through primary school, so you don’t study sufficiently. All you want to do is look at the book in the exam room and pass and all that. But what happens when you come out? You still are not educated. So, the point is the mistake that people make is really about wanting to become very transactional in their approach to business. Whereas to manage a business goes beyond transactions. Yeah, you go into business to make money, but in doing that, as you are growing shareholder value, you are doing that in a very compliant way. So, something to do with governance has to be well embedded and to embed it, you have to embody it. Embody means that you have to personalize it, you have to live it, you have to manifest it. So, it’s about governance, it’s about ensuring that you manage your community. Oh, and then in all of doing that, you’ve got to make money legitimately.

What didn’t you know all the while that you were running a multinational that you only discovered now that you are running your own personal business? Or is it the same thing?

Well, I will not say didn’t know as much. Only that the significance wasn’t as much as what I face now – and that is actually about relationship management. So, when you are managing a multinational company, you know that you need those relationships anyway to crack some of the big issues for your organization. But when you are running a small or a medium scale business that you own, even more so do you need those relationships. Because the single biggest way that you are gonna get business into your organization is that. In a multinational company, there are many ways to get businesses in and especially if they are fast moving consumer goods. So, you wanna believe that if you engage the consumers on TV, on radio, at point of sale and all of that, that can build a bit of a momentum for you in terms of ability to generate patronage. In the service industry, like what I do now, you absolutely have to create the right relationships to ensure that in addition to all of the good things you do in terms of service orientation, consumer insight orientation and all of that; that you build the right relationships, because at the end of the day, in some cases, it is those relationships that will open the doors for you and it is when you get in that you are able to sell the big service quality or whatever that you have. So, without that; without even having a footing, you can’t sell who you are.

What do you like most about being on your own?

Let me say that it’s not really so much about feeling that being on my own or being in a partnership or being in paid employment matters so much to me. My goal is not about you must be on your own or you must work for somebody. My goal is about how to grow value for myself and my family, how to maximize the opportunity that presents itself every day, on my own or with somebody. So, my decision is always about being in a paid employment and being on my own, what delivers the most value? And actually, I’m not so sentimental about that, I’m not so emotional. But talking about being on my own; what I like about it is that you will see even more than in any multinational setting or paid employment setting, the impact of every effort you make in a much more visible way. Remember, working for a company or a multinational company, if you are in Guinness, working with 1,500 people or whatever it is, it’s an aggregation of the efforts of the 1,500 people. So, both provide good impact for the organisation, but I think the one you do as CEO of your own company, you just see the impact immediately.

For people who are just delving in; what is the best way to climb the corporate ladder?

If you look at what we call the ladder, it’s almost like a pyramid. Or let me simplify it more – it’s like a triangle, where at the base of it; it is much wider than the peak of it. The peak of it is pointed. And the point is that if you look at any organization, whether it’s multinational or medium scale or whatever, at the time graduates are coming in, like management trainees, they are like 50 management trainees coming in. When it’s time to appoint junior managers, they are reduced to, I don’t know, like 25. When it is time to appoint middle managers – 20; senior managers – 15; directors, maybe six. At the end of the day, there is only one CEO. And I say to people, what stands you out is more than just your intellectual ability. So, the first thing…some other person might have some other thought, but clearly, from my perspective, what stood out for me, that I think God gave me the wisdom to do from beginning was that from the moment I started, every day of my career, I tried to do more than was required of my job. Let me explain what that means – as a marketer in a manufacturing company, okay, I took interest in knowing how they produce the product I was marketing. I didn’t need to do that. Somebody else was in charge of production, I was to just wait, let the product come out to go and market. But I bent backward, I bent over my shoulders to say by the way, how is this produced? I got an interest in it. Not necessarily being an expert in that, but I got to know that. I went to account to say look, how do you even account for this thing I sell? Little did I know that all that was preparing me for what people will translate as creating a broad-based manager out of me, and therefore that made it easy for me to move from department to department. Secondly is that you cannot aspire to be at the top in my own opinion if you don’t know that stagnation is an impediment to growing. So, you have to consciously invest in your growth. They say buy cheap, buy twice. If you don’t invest in your growth, you don’t grow. It’s what it means. And I used to do something that I thank God that He gave me wisdom for – I used to do what I call uncomfortable reading. Uncomfortable reading is when you pick something that you are not familiar with and you are trying to read it, you don’t understand it and you tell yourself that you will not leave that page until you understand it. It’s called uncomfortable reading. So, for instance, when I’m on a plane, I see those magazines they put there and I pick one of them and it’s talking about mining. What do I know about mining? But I’m saying to myself that, yes, someone that knows about mining will take 10 seconds to 15 seconds; it takes me 30 minutes, but when I come out, let me know one or two things about mining. Why? So that the day people are talking about mining where I am, I can contribute. That enabled me to grow, and I think it’s one of the reasons that propelled me to the top.

What mistake must anybody who plays in the corporate world not make?

Oh, there’s no room for a lack of integrity. There’s this saying that you can hide, but you can’t run. There are some things you can cover only but for a time. At the right time, you will be exposed. So, there are some values that are UnAfrican – values of good governance, of accountability of integrity. In the corporate world, especially when I was outside Nigeria; I hear that a lot – when you do something and people say oh, that’s beautiful, but that is UnAfrican. The mistake people make is to continue to live those values that are UnAfrican. If you want to really avoid any mistake; in fact, in some multinational companies, it is said that it is easier to forgive you for commercial failure than for compliance failure. So, the first thing you wanna do is to make sure that as you run on that path, you know what your lane is and you stay within the rules. There are two things. The first one I’m speaking to you about is compliance and the impact of that in making sure that you don’t make a mistake in life. I’ve seen very brilliant people, who you could almost see a very long-term career ahead of them, fall out of the way or fall short of expectations on account of integrity issues, compliance failure. So, that’s the first thing that you must not do. The second thing for me is that it’s so true that your attitude is everything to work. And I hear this thing that people say the at doing well in life is about working smart and not working hard and I laugh at that. The reason I laugh at that is that if you are the smartest person, you work the smartest in the world, but you don’t work hard, it takes you nowhere. I tell you a story – I was in the company of Alhaji (Aliko) Dangote about four, five years ago, just shortly after the new government came through, with some CEOs; he led about 12 CEOs, I believe, to Abuja to go and see the Vice President (Prof. Yemi Osinbajo) and when we finished at the Vice President’s office, which was like 11pm and I then asked him, I said chairman, you must be tried, you must be going to bed now and he said what do you mean by that? He said now I’m driving, I think with Alake, one of his staff, to the airport to go and take a flight to Kano, because we have a meeting, I think, with some ministers, newly appointed ministers in Kano. So, I now started figuring – this is 11pm in Abuja, he’s going to drive to the airport, let’s say Abuja to Kano, I don’t know, 45minutes to 1hour. So, before they come out of the airport and start the meeting, easily by my estimation, they are starting the meeting by 12:30am at best.

Now, that is somebody who you and I will consider has made it already. And he’s smart as well. Then, on top of that, he’s still working so hard. Therefore, another mistake you must not make is to assume that just by being smart, it doesn’t matter, if you are good and you can bounce on your feet, that’s enough to take you to the top. No, no, no…You need to be smart, yes, but you need to work hard. No substitute for hardwork.

When is usually the best time for one to move from being an employee to an employer?

I even doubt if there’s anything like best time or ideal time. By the way, there are some people that will never transform from being employees to employers. It just wouldn’t work for them. The fact that you are a successful employee does not make you a potentially successful employer and it’s just the same way that people will say that at times you are a good No.2. But when No.1 leaves and you get there, you just drop like a pack of cards. Because you are not cut out for leadership at that step. But that said, in the context of running your own business, my thought is that you want to do it when you’ve got the contacts, when you’ve got the resources and when you’ve got the energy. So, if you are a successful CEO and you build successful relationships across board, that’s something that you can leverage as a very valuable asset. A lot of time when people ask what your assets are, you talk money, you talk car, you talk this. But I think and strongly believe that one of the strongest assets anybody can have is the quality of relationships that you have. So, you’ve got that quality of relationships; and I think added to that clearly should be the fact that you are still energetic enough. There’s no point coming out to start running your business at 70, when you don’t have the energy anymore. Of course, naturally, you need to have some resources at your disposal and/or be able to leverage some things to generate the resources. So, even if you don’t have cash, you have assets that you can turn into banks or whoever you can turn them in or through private equity injection and have the resources. So, you need the network, that’s relationship, you need the resources and you need the energy to do that.

What would you say was the greatest lesson you learnt while working in the corporate world?

I think the first thing is never get too complacent, never get too lost in your own world and I’m saying that to everyone that is out there working for multinational companies and anybody, even though it’s not multinational companies. You should live everyday like if there’s a severance of relationship, what then would you do? If you decide that you are pulling out, what are you going out to do? So, the point being that the biggest thing that I learnt and thankfully I was never a victim of that sort of thing, because everyday of my 30 years working for multinational companies, I think I always thought about what I would do whenever I was not there. And I thank God that it is working out very well. I mean, you can imagine people working for multinational companies, and I have seen many, who get lost in that world and never know that there’s a world beyond that setting and then they come out and some of them, in a short time, you are hearing that they have health challenges and some unfortunately even passing on. So, the biggest learning; fortunately not a mistake – I’m thanking God that I always had that thinking, is that as much as you put all of your efforts and your horse power behind what you do in a corporate world, also remember that there’s life after that and therefore also think about what your life after that will be.

When did you come to the realization of the fact that you needed to leave the corporate world to set up shop on your own?

First and foremost, I’ve always said to people, incidentally jokingly, that because I started very early; I got my first job in a multinational company, I must have been about 23 or 24. So, I always said that…No, I wasn’t up to 23. I was 22! So, I always jokingly told people that anytime I was above 50, that I will then try and get something on my own. So, for me, it wasn’t entirely a strange thing – after I crossed my 50; a couple of years above that, I then started this. I think that thankfully, I still got so much energy, I’ve got thankfully good relationships, I think I’ve got good equity in the industry, and all of that added together. I sit on the board of some companies; really big reputable companies, I sit on their boards, we’ve been partners with WPP, the biggest in advertising globally. So, you just sort of add all of those together and all you do on my behalf is to go on your knees and thank God for me.

Now, what has changed about you since setting up shop on your own or are you still living the kind of life you lived while in the corporate world?

What has changed really? In terms of personal comfort, I think I can humbly say that nothing has changed. I thank God for that. In terms of personal comfort, if anything, I think it’s better. But what has changed that I’m more gladdened by is the fact that I’ve been able to create a lot more time to impact on a wider society. If you look at the last one week, I’ve been at the retreat of MTN as a guest speaker, to motivate them; I’ve been at the one for Indomie noodles and Fidelity Bank, all in one week. Ranging from a hundred staff to 350, depending on any of those three and I would never have been able to create that time when I was still there. So, I feel like I’m impacting the society more and more, especially from a leadership stand point. When an MTN calls you to say just come and talk to our guys and motivate them or Indomie noodles, Dufil as they call them; yes, that I think is the biggest thing that has really given me joy. Because my purpose really has always been to lead the creation of a new generation of leaders. So, I wanted to really inspire a new generation of leaders and there’s no better way to inspire a new generation of leaders than having a personal contact with them and then telling them your story and letting them know when you thought thankfully you did well and where you actually thought you failed.

In life, some people attain success, but they are not able to sustain it. Where do you think they normally miss it or get it wrong?

I think again it’s really about the lack of humility. I believe in God, by the way, and I don’t take for granted what I have achieved. I strongly believe all of this, I didn’t say except, has been pre-destined by God and God has been driving it Himself. I think the moment you start sharing God’s glory with Him, and taking credit for who you are, and thinking there’s nobody like you, I think you will find it difficult to maintain that success. That’s for me No.1. Another way that people have not been able to manage success well is that you must never ever get carried away by the praises of people. Nigeria is a very aspirational community, it’s a status-driven community. And there are times that people think that you are quite wealthy and when you have only N10million in your account, people exaggerate it to say you are worth N100million and then what happens is that you want to live a life that’s worth N100million. Guess what? To your question, it’s another reason to fail. And by the way, I remember when I was at some function that you were in the other time, I said it to people that the fact that you have N10million in your account does not mean that you can afford a N9million car. I repeat, the fact that you have N10million in your account does not mean that you can afford a N9million car. Why? Because if you go to buy something that is going to wipe off your account, you just set yourself up for failure, because you do more in life than running a car. And in any case, you are gonna need to buy fuel in it, you need to maintain it, you need to feed your family and all of that. A lot of people don’t know that relationship between what I have and what I can afford. It is not everything you have that you can afford with that resource.

There’s no arguing the fact that God has been nice to you. What more do you want from Him, what is that thing that you are still besieging Him for?

Ah! There’s a lot (laughing). There’s a lot…First and foremost, I’m thanking Him for what He’s done for me and believing in Him for continued engagement, because if you don’t stay connected with God, it’s also easy to lose everything. The second thing is obviously I’m believing God for long life, in good health and thirdly I’m trusting Him to give me the grace and the ability to continue to impact my generation. I really want to leave a legacy; I want to inspire a new generation of African leaders. I want to be in a situation that God willing, when we are much, much older, and we see people coming through, and they are better and bigger than us, I’m there smiling to say I came across that person, he was in the room when I made a statement about that, that, that. So, it gives me joy when I see ‘your children’ growing. So, that’s my prayer to God now. It’s for what I do in the society and if God does that for me, I will be eternally grateful to Him.

Your company is called Algorithm. Why Algorithm and how did you arrive at the name, Algorithm?

Algorithm, if you go and learn a little more about it; it’s just a scientific way, a scientific approach to solving problems. In fact, when we were in school, for those of us that…I did Chemical Engineering; you will be hearing algorithm. So, it’s talking about the logical way, a scientific way in some places for solving problems. So, in our world here, algorithm just means that, in terms of our business, we are in this, creating structures, creating governance, ensuring that people believe in us for the long term. But by the way, Algorithm is not the only company I have here. We have Oglivy Nigeria. Again, I repeat that I’m a partner to WPP, which means that I own the franchise for Nigeria and so, yeah, that’s the whole essence of Algorithm and Oglivy.

Tell us more about the group – because we are also aware that Mindshare is part of the group. What is your staff strength and so on?

We have a holding company called First Primus. So, I’m founder and group CEO of First Primus. Now, First Primus is the parent company of a number of companies…

Can you tell us their names? I mean the other companies or subsidiaries.

Exactly! One of them is Oglivy. That’s very easy. Oglivy is a creative agency, what you call advertising agency. So, they do everything from above the line, in terms of creative and content production and all of that. Then, besides Oglivy is Algorithm Media. Algorithm Media is the group’s media buying company. Under Algorithm Media, because of businesses coming in and managing conflicts and all that, we have one media company called MediaCom and another media company called MindShare. But both MediaComm and MediaShare are media companies under the Algorithm Media and the reason, I repeat, they are there separately is that if someday a Cocacola wants to buy media with us and a Pepsi wants to buy media with us; by the way, these companies I talk about have their MDs, there’s a Chinese wall between then; then they have their entire teams and all of that… In total, across the group, we have about 50 graduates and I feel really blessed by God because these are companies that we started about four years ago. In fact, four years ago with the media side – The Algorithm Media, and Oglivy started just about two years ago and like I said, I think in the media space, people will probably think we are in the top five or whatever in the industry and in the creative space, just last year, towards the end of last year, at the LAIF Awards, we won six awards and we were rated one of the top eight advertising agencies. So, relatively young, but I think that it’s not arrogant to say that God has been good to us. I mean, we get called into practically every big pitch that’s happening in the country. We looked at it last year, nearly all of the multinational companies that pitched their accounts invited us and that’s a testament to what they are seeing that we can offer.

Now, what’s your dream for Algorithm or even the entire group?

My dream for the group is that we are in the top three in every sector, every category that we participate in. So, whether that is in advertising, or that is media, or that is BTL or whatever, everything that we participate in, we want to be in the top three by 2022. That’s two years from now. So, all of the efforts and the horse power that we have, we will be putting into growing those agencies, with the right people, the right governance, the right strategy and then the right tools and processes, supported by WPP to ensure that in the next two years we actually play in the top three in every category.

You used to maintain a very popular column in Sunday Punch. But all of sudden the column disappeared. What happened?

In fact, I get that question all the time and I feel very guilty about it. I apologise to all my readers. It’s just been me pleading with Punch that I ran out of time, and out of time because I got a couple of board appointments and that I had to take up and that’s a bit selfish on my part and I recognize that. But I’ve decided that God willing, the first week of March, I’m gonna launch something else. Nigerians should watch out. There’s a leadership podcast that is coming through. It’s another way of giving back to the society without writing, but giving back on leadership and actually, YES INTERNATIONAL! is the first magazine, the first publication that I’m going to mention that to – that all plans are in top gear, that come March, people will start seeing our podcasts across social media platforms, where we will be talking about leadership in a very practical way, really backed by real story telling of what happened in my experience. As against, yes, what Peter Drucker says or here is what Michael Potter says.

You are one of the few renowned MDs who usually step out with their wives. How did both of you meet and why are both of you so close?

I met my wife probably in 1986 – 34 years ago – and she is just like 51 or 52 now. So, that means that she was a teenager when we met. She was in the university, and I think I was just finishing at UNILAG and we met at a friend’s birthday. And on a Valentine’s Day, by the way (laughs). We just got stuck to each other. I mean, I can still see what happened then; there were a lot of ladies there. It was one of those parties, it was a birthday party of a lady and it was a ladies’ event to the extent that the guys there were few. But even among all the ladies, there was no doubt that I knew who I wanted to be with and people have said that and it’s true of me. From the day I met her, God just said in my mind that that’s the person and despite that at the time I met her, I had a couple of friends as well; yes, I had female friends. You know, the University of Lagos, I had a car to myself, I was in Engineering, I was relatively smart, I was the chairman of my hall, I had so many things. So, I had friends! And then I met her! And it was a no brainer that over time, I left a lot of those friends for her.

But why did I strengthen my belief in her and such that, that led to a marriage? My mom wasn’t the most literate. She was very successful as a trader, selling clothes and all of that. But her English was just…what I call…you would almost know what she’s saying. But she wouldn’t speak all of the good English you would hear in England and my wife on the other hand had just returned to Nigeria – she was born in the UK and grew up in the UK and they are just coming to Nigeria for her later part of her education. So, I remember one day, I brought her home and I had to dash out; I was still at home, in my parents’ home. I had to dash out to go and get something and I came back and I couldn’t believe how she was communicating with my mother – she couldn’t speak Yoruba, the other one couldn’t speak English very well. So, how are they communicating? I mean, she was plaiting her hair, and they were joking and all of that and I said to myself even despite the constraint in language, if they could do this, she’s definitely the person. And why have we been so close? I think we’ve got to a point where it’s almost like we’ve become brother and sister. If you’ve known somebody for over 30 years, you had better get used to the person otherwise you just go and kill yourself. But we’ve had God…God has been good to us, we pray together, when we can, we worship together in the same church and more importantly, it doesn’t matter how many bedrooms are in the house that we live in; I’m one of those people that believe that you must share your room with your wife. So, where we live right now, when our kids who have their own rooms are out; we’ve got, I don’t know, five, six bedrooms left to ourselves, but I still stay in the same bedroom with my wife. And I think that helped to get us together. If you can’t see during the day, you get to talk at night or whatever.

Some people succeed in business, and they fail in marriage. What usually goes wrong?

And it’s a very common one! It’s really about not understanding that there’s a balance to everything. That thing that people call work – life balance, we’ve gotten so used to it, we all joke about it. But it’s so, so true. And particularly for us as business executives, we get so carried away in our desire to be successful, make money and all of that and forget that success actually is not just about having money. Success is about having a home and the reason that people, in my opinion, drop one of the two is that they don’t appreciate that part of their success is the woman or the husband they have. One of the things that I…and incidentally I want to say this specifically to people who might still be in that, my opinion, of archaic way of thinking. When we got married, I used to think that my wife and my family were best served by my wife not working. And if I go back to that time that she was not working and now that she’s very busy, I think that the time she was not working was when I had the most frosty of times with her. We never fought, but it was more difficult and the reason was that I left the house in the morning; I left her there. By 5pm or 6pm, she’s expecting me back, she’s not going to be talking to the wall. She’s expecting me back, but I’m coming at 8pm. She’s upset. Now, she wants to talk finally, I’m not in a position to talk, because I’m tired and I want to sleep. So, here’s somebody who’s been waiting for you to talk all day and all that. So, when God gave me that wisdom and understanding, and she’s a chartered accountant, MBA holder and all of that. We just decided that look, she should work. Now, because she’s working, when we are coming home, we are both looking forward to the evening. She’s coming to share experiences, I’m coming to share experiences and it just strengthens the bonding. It just makes the bonding thicker. In fact, there are times where I’m calling and she says give me an hour, I’m still busy and you are happy. So, for me, part of the success is making that balance, knowing that, that’s a factor in your bid to thrive as a successful man. If you are successful as a man, in my opinion, and you’ve not been able to manage your home well, it takes something out of your success.

Can we meet your family?

Yes! We have two daughters and a son.

What are their names?

Kemi is the oldest. Then, Nicholas and Jessica.

When you are not working, what are the things that keep you busy and engaged?

Like every other Nigerian man, I like football…

So, which club are you supporting?

Ah! You will be disappointed, but I’m proud of that – Up Newcastle! (laughter). Everybody asks me how come you support Newcastle of all the clubs? And I say to them that I’ve supported them since 1984. I even bought their cards for some years. I’ve not done that recently, and the reason is that the first time I went to England in 1984; it was my first time in England, my cousin that I stayed with in England was going to watch a football game at Saint James’ Park. I think it was in north of England and I decided to follow him and I loved the atmosphere. All these Alan Shearer and all of that, and from there it started. And you know what? I believe in citizenship. If you are a citizen of a club, you shouldn’t change your club. There are some people now, they are shouting eh, up Liverpool, up Liverpool and they are actually supporters of a season. Once a club goes down, they move to another. Some of them I used to know them as Arsenal supporters, they’ve given up on Arsenal. Now they say up Liverpool. I’m not a seasonal supporter. I’m a citizen, a die-hard, a citizen of my club. So, I don’t change. Up Newcastle!

What are the other things you do for relaxation?

When I can, I play table tennis as well…

You don’t read?

I do read…

Who is your favourite author?

Oh, incidentally, I read business magazines. So, The Economist, Business Africa and all that. Those are the things I tend to read. Occasionally, I read obviously leadership books. I like Jim Collins; I’ve read his book called Good to Great, the red cover, I learnt a lot from it and a couple of others. But Jim Collins has been the one I find easy. So, it’s a combination of reading business magazines or leadership magazines, playing table tennis when I can. Rarely, recently. I’ve been watching football as well and I try to do my exercise every now and then. So that’s all I do.